Gail Williams

[00:00:00] Hey, everybody. Before we get started, just a quick note to stick around at the end of this interview because we are debuting a brand-new segment honoring our dear friend Lance LaDuke, so don't miss it Hello, and welcome to a brand new season of The Brass Junkies. I'm joined by guest co-host Nicole Cash. Nicole, how are you? I'm good. How are you doing? I'm good. It takes, uh, I think this is because of my advanced age, it takes a lot of brain power for me to not call you Nikki, which I know it's okay- ... if I call you Nikki, but it's like I, it's like - I do respond to both, so- Yeah either way. Uh, yeah, Nicole is, um, is a, um, like, had an unbelievable, uh, horn career, uh, herself at the very top of the orchestral, uh, Dallas, San Francisco, and is now, um, i- in the next phase of her career, is an [00:01:00] award-winning, 'cause she doesn't do anything, like, halfway, which is, uh, I gotta admit, is a little annoying. Uh- ... but, uh, is an award-winning, uh, audiobook narrator. So, um, yeah, before that, like, made, like, the most unbelievable cakes anybody had ever seen. Uh, yeah, it's, uh, yeah, you need to just chill out, Nicole. That's, uh, yeah, that's- that's why I- Well- ... that's why I brought you on ... tell my kids I would love to chill out. I cannot chill out. There's too much to do, right? Right. That's, uh... No, you're a, you're a force. Uh, speaking of forces, how amazing was the conversation that we just had with Gail Williams? Oh my God. So amazing. Like, just ins- uh, inspired all over again. She's just, like, wise and, and funny and, like, just full of experiences to share. It's wonderful. She's an icon. Yeah. Yeah. I- for, for, like, uh, yeah, about 10 different unrelated reasons, she's an [00:02:00] icon. Uh, and we could have asked her questions without repeating anything for, I- uh, 12 straight hours. Yeah. Um- Absolutely ... yeah. Uh, she's really into photography now, which we got into, and she's, uh, about to go to Botswana- Mm-hmm uh, to, to take, uh, photographs, and talking about her legacy as a teacher and her decision to leave the, the CSO when she did. And, um, you asked some, uh, incredible questions about just her teaching and how it's changed over the years and, um, what a fascinating conversation. Yeah. Yeah. And I, you know, I think, like, the fact that we can distill it down to just, like, change is healthy, right? I feel like that's my big, my big takeaway moment. Change is healthy. Yeah. Don't fight it. It's just, it's good for you. Yeah. Take it by the reins. Yeah, it is good for you. Uh, speaking of, uh, being good for you, uh, Parker Mouthpieces, uh, provides the hosting for, uh, for the Brass Junkies. [00:03:00] Parker Mouthpieces offers fine customizable component mouthpieces for horn, trombone, euphonium, and tuba, including the Andrew Hitz Artist Model tuba mouthpiece and the Lance LaDuke Model euphonium mouthpiece. I used to enjoy pointing out that mine is an artist model and that his is just a model, so, uh- ... I'm gonna s- I'm gonna still, still do that. Um, he used to just say, "Yes, it is," and then would just like, yeah, he, he, he would never feed the beast. But, uh, but you know. I learned from him to just give... If I find something funny, I'll just keep saying it. So, uh, so that's his fault. But you can find out more at, uh, parkermouthpieces.com, who have c- which is of course Michael Parker, who both of us were at Northwestern together. That's right So yeah, along with, uh, yeah, the three of us and Gail Williams were all at Northwestern together. Um, but what an honor, uh, to get to talk to, uh, to Gail. Just, uh, yeah, truly, uh, truly an honor. Uh, and she's been on my list for, um, I mean, a decade to interview for this. Oh. And I just like, for whatever reason, just never, uh, you [00:04:00] know, her name never bubbled right to the top when I was reaching out to people, and then I was like, "Wait, I gotta- Yeah ... I wanna kick this off after coming back after multiple years away after Lance's accident." And, and I was like, "You know what? Um, Gail would be the perfect person." And, uh, I told you this, Nicole, but I was like, instantly I was like, "I want, I want Nicole to guest- ... uh, co-host," and you were, you were wonderful, so. Yeah. Um, pretty cool to get to talk to your former teacher, right? Yeah, yeah. After all, after all this time, you know? And, and just perspective changes, right? And it's, it's, it was fantastic. It was... I feel really lucky, and I really appreciate being asked the opportunity- Oh ... to do this, yeah. Y- you, uh, you crushed it, so yeah. The, the, uh, I ask some rambling, uh, like, interesting adjacent questions. Nicole asks some- ... really, really great, uh, and super interesting questions. So just, uh, hang in there with, uh, with me for the ones I ask. We'll get to the Nicole ones, and they're gold. So, uh, without further ado, let us get to the [00:05:00] conversation that we just had with horn icon Gail Williams. Andrew Hitz: And today on The Brass Junkies, we are joined by an absolute icon. Uh, I do not throw that word around lightly. Uh, this is someone where, uh, you have done so much and you have meant so much to so many people who have gone on to do so much and meant things to so many people, that I have absolutely no idea where to begin with you. But we're just gonna start somewhere. Today we are joined by horn legend Gail Williams. Gail, how are you? Gail Williams: I'm well, thank you Andrew Hitz: Thank you so much for- It was Gail Williams: really good ... Andrew Hitz: yeah, thanks for being here. Um, yeah, just, um, again, I don't know where to start with you. You're playing, you're teaching, you're humanity. Um, what, um, you are, uh, now looking back at a, a playing and a teaching [00:06:00] career, um, that, um, in terms of, like, the formal segments of it, are over. You have, uh, you retired from Northwestern a year and a half ago. You retired from the CSO, uh, almost 30 years ago, which is hard to believe. Um, what, wow, what are your thoughts on all that you've accomplished? Do you ever sit and reflect about it or do you just, uh, or, or not? Gail Williams: You froze there for a while, so I don't know what's going on. Andrew Hitz: Do you, if, if I froze, assume it was a rambling question. Um, yeah, 'cause that's my- Right ... specialty. Right. When, wh- when, do you ever- Do you ever look back on your career and reflect on the impact that you have had or does that not really cross your mind? Gail Williams: No, d- uh, I'm just blessed, you know, to have had the opportunity to work with so many people in so many different areas, not only just, [00:07:00] uh, playing with different colleagues, but learning from other colleagues. That's, that's the thing I look back at, is aren't I lucky, you know? Someone asked me the other day, "Are you gonna write a book?" I went, "Nope." Mm. Because I've stolen everything, you know? I'm, I'm gonna, I'm gonna use what this person said and, and, and, and share it, because that's what's, what's going on, is it's the sharing part. And I don't wanna look backwards. I wanna look forwards. What am I gonna do next, you know? Nicole Cash: Mm. Gail Williams: Because you gotta keep moving or you lose it. Nicole Cash: So what are you gonna do next? What's your next big hobby? Gail Williams: Oh, my big ho- my big hobby is photography. Nicole Cash: Yeah, yeah. Gail Williams: Yeah. Yeah. And I'm going on another trip. I've gone on, with the same company, I've gone on five trips already. Nicole Cash: Nice. Gail Williams: Because I can, you know? Wow. And I think you're frozen again. Oh, maybe not. Andrew Hitz: No, we Gail Williams: can hear Andrew Hitz: you- But- just fine ... Gail Williams: [00:08:00] okay. I've gone, um, I, I, I have a desire to see as many national parks in the United States- And take pictures of them. And I have gone over to Scotland, and that was spectacular. Uh, and I go to Botswana in a couple weeks. Nicole Cash: We were just Gail Williams: in Botswana- I'm getting all my shots ... in Nicole Cash: May. Where, where, uh, are you going on safari obviously, or? Gail Williams: Yeah, I'm gonna go with the s- same com- company. Uh-huh. And, uh, and Nicole, you know about my horn teacher, Mr. Covert. Nicole Cash: Yes, yes. Gail Williams: And I went to see him just before he passed away. Nicole Cash: Mm-hmm. Gail Williams: And he said to me, "What are you gonna do, your safari, Gail? You promised me." Nicole Cash: Oh, wow. So you're doing Gail Williams: it. So that's what I'm doing. And before that I, I told him about going to Alaska to go to [00:09:00] Denali and, and go see the bears and take pictures and camp out next to the bears. And he said, "Oh, that's great, Gail. But you're gonna take that plane ride around Denali." I said, "I am not getting in any little plane." Nicole Cash: Uh-oh. I- she's frozen on my end. Andrew Hitz: Yeah, she is frozen. After- Were you Nicole Cash: just chuckling for extended to see if it would unfreeze while you chuckled? Andrew Hitz: It was also just the fact that, uh... Oh, she's back. Nicole Cash: There we are. Andrew Hitz: That was great. You froze after saying, "I am not getting on a little plane." That was it. And that was it. Yeah. And then, uh- Yeah ... and, and then you froze. Um- Gail Williams: Okay. Andrew Hitz: Yeah. Gail Williams: Yeah, I mean, I can continue from there. I said to him, "I am not getting on an, any little plane." And of course I did. Because there was the opportunity to spend a couple hours. And so the pilot put me in the front seat. [00:10:00] And we got up there, and it was rainy, and it was windy, and it was not, and cloudy, and, and all of a sudden it opened up- And I said, "That's Jack." Nicole Cash: Yeah. Gail Williams: Yeah. Oh my God. So we flew all the way around Denali, which is huge, you know, and I took a picture of a ridge, uh, not only with my camera, but mostly with my phone 'cause it was working better. And then I sent the picture immediately to a friend who had climbed and snowboarded down Denali. Wow. And I said, "Is this where you went?" Wow. And he said, "Yep. Just a little to the left." And I went, "Okay. Oh, jeepers creepers." Oh my gosh. So, but I'm, so I'm... That's my, my, um... I guess what I wanna do is see as many places as I can while I still... I, I play the horn every day, 'cause that's kinda what you did, you know? And it's kind of my routine. And, um, I didn't yesterday because, darn, I got tickets for the [00:11:00] Cubs and, ugh, they lost. But, um, you know, I'm, I'm here with my, my husband is still here, um, in a facility. But my... I have four grandchildren and my two children here. And so I keep busy trying to see them and go to as many baseball games as my grandson plays. Do I go to concerts? Not as much as I probably could. I didn't say should. Could. Nicole Cash: There's no should in retirement. Andrew Hitz: Right? Gail Williams: Well, Doug Hill gave a lecture once on don't be a should-er, and that's been very interesting to say, "Don't be a should-er." I should have. Yes. You know, if you do it, you're dumb. Andrew Hitz: Wow. Same thing, uh, in the practice room as well. If I, if I ever catch myself saying like, "I should be able to play this passage like five clicks faster by now," because e- even if under normal circumstances I could with the work I've put in, that means I'm denying reality, and I'm feeling sorry for [00:12:00] myself, and I'm not just figuring out what I need to do right now to move the thing forward. Yeah. Gail Williams: Exactly. Andrew Hitz: Yeah. Gail Williams: Don't be a should-er. Andrew Hitz: Yeah, the... I like it. That's, that's really good. Yeah. Um, I want to, uh, to actually ask you a little bit more about, uh, John Covert. Um, uh, I, uh, I don't know if you remember this, but what, like two and a half years ago when he passed away, uh, there was, uh, um, at this point, it was like the second to last Brass Junkies episode before the, the hiatus, um, was, uh, a group of seven people who were talking about a music educator who had made an impact on them. And, uh, I, uh, spoke to Ryan Little, um, of course, the, uh, the, the fantastic horn player, and when I, uh, texted Ryan to ask who he wanted to talk about, he, like with zero hesitation, he was like, "Gail," like, "is, is who I wanna talk about." And so I texted you with the link to it so that you could hear it, 'cause [00:13:00] he said a, a lot of awfully nice things, uh, about you, and that happened to be on the day that, uh, that John Covert had passed away. And, um, and you had talked about, um, about how you had a chance to visit him, uh, the, the previous week and, um- Mm-hmm ... which then brought a flood of emotions back to me, 'cause I got to see Sam Pilafian, uh, you know, shortly before he passed. And anyway, um, what, um, what are the enduring lessons... Uh, if somebody asked me this about Sam, I'd be like, "I have 100 answers," but like what are some things that pop into your mind about the en- the enduring lessons that you learned, uh, from John Covert? Gail Williams: Wow. Um- Consistency? Work ethic Preparation. I'm thinking of one words. And, uh, dedication to music [00:14:00] I think those, those are things that are just popped in my mind. You know, I said the other day to... I was giving a lesson and I said, "You know, the, the sad thing is I went in as a 17-year-old to Ithaca, and I had not had a horn lesson. He was my first teacher." Andrew Hitz: Wow Gail Williams: And I played, you know, I had lessons in high school with my band director 10 minutes a week and that was it. Wow. And, um, my mom probably taught me more about music, 'cause she was an, our vocal music teacher K through 12. So I, she knew what trouble I got into before I did, you know? Wow. Had her for 13 years. But- Um, my first lesson was, was that, "Well, what etude books did you, have you worked out of?" And I looked at him like, "Huh?" Nicole Cash: What's an etude? Gail Williams: That's exactly what I said, "What's an etude book?" And he just went, "Ah, geez." And that's what he said for four years, "Ah, geez." [00:15:00] So he spoon fed me- Nicole Cash: Mm ... Gail Williams: you know, how to play the horn through music that was written to teach you how to play the horn. So he gave me so many etudes and, and made me play solos, but I did not play excerpts. And so many kids start playing excerpts when they're in the seventh grade, and it's just wrong. I really feel it's very, very wrong because they're learning some of the most important things you're gonna learn when you're not ready to play. It's like- Nicole Cash: Mm ... Gail Williams: saying to my, I can say to my grandson, "Okay, you're gonna throw a screwball today." No, you can't throw straight ahead ball yet. Yeah. Don't do that to your elbow, you know? It's the same thing as any athlete. Mm. You, you should be playing music that is appropriate for the age and your ability that you haven't learned yet. And I luckily, I was a music ed student, and I luckily had some wonderful [00:16:00] colleagues at Ithaca, and I remember one person saying, he ... I said, "I wanna do this." And she said, "No, you can't do that yet. You're, you're not ready to do that." And I didn't understand for a while, but I, I thanked her later. I said, "You were absolutely correct. I wasn't ready to play that." And it would've been frustrating, it would've been probably learned incorrectly. Um, yeah. And maturity. You're, you're not ready to play that music in your, your, in your soul. You haven't learned enough about life yet. Nicole Cash: Mm. Gail Williams: So. Nicole Cash: Well, I fi- I found that fascinating. I don't think I knew that your mom was a vocal teacher. Gail Williams: K through 12. Nicole Cash: Mm-hmm. And that makes, but that makes so much sense because if I were to think about, you know, one of the lasting lessons that I remember learning from you was just the sense of the long phrase. [00:17:00] And that's, I think, I mean, obviously you learned that from your mother, how to spin the air and how to, how to, how to play the long phrase. And so what that you didn't have an etude book or have a single lesson with a horn player until you arrived at college. You had an understanding of what it is to, to say and sing- through your horn. I mean, that's, if, if there's anything I think about when I think about my lessons with you, it's that you always encouraged us to, to sing through the horn, and to s- and to actually sing the phrase before we put the horn to our face. I mean, it makes so much sense. Like, click- I mean- ... click, it's all clicking ... Gail Williams: if we all had beautiful voices, we wouldn't be playing the horn, or instrument. We'd be singing all this beautiful repertoire, you know? And so that's why I, I think it's terribly important. 'Cause why did, w- why did you pick up the horn? I mean, people ask me, "Why did you pick the horn up?" Mm. Well, my mother said, "Well, you're left-handed, so play the horn." It wasn't because I had heard a [00:18:00] great sound or knew the music. Not that at all. Mm-hmm. But did I play tunes on the horn? Sure. I took... I grew up on a dairy farm. I took my horn down to the barn and I played for my cows, and they would just moo right back. And my brother and I used to go into the silo and play chords, because when you have a 70-foot silo, you have a lot of echo, and it's really fun. Nicole Cash: So the happiest cows aren't in California. They're in Upstate New York- Gail Williams: They were Upstate ... Nicole Cash: listening to you play the horn. Gail Williams: That, that's right. That's right. But it's, it's what you... You know, you put it into perspective. It's like, oh, I get to go practice. I, I don't have to go milk cows right now, you know? Nicole Cash: Yeah. Gail Williams: So it wasn't work to go practice. Nicole Cash: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Gail Williams: Yeah. Andrew Hitz: When, when I think of your playing, uh, two of the words that, uh, that come to mind are effortless phrasing, and yet it's, uh... I know that that was a result of a lot of effort. So it almost, like, it doesn't make any sense to say [00:19:00] effortless phrasing, but that's... It just, uh, your playing always sounds so natural. Um, and, uh, it's not a surprise to hear that your mother was not only a vocalist, but a, a vocal teacher, and that that has become, like, a major m- well, has been for a long time, a major staple, um, in, in your teaching. How do you, how do you address students who say, "I have a terrible voice," or, "I can't sing"? Gail Williams: Can you whistle? Hmm. Because some people don't, are too embarrassed, but if they can whistle, they can whistle a beautiful phrase. Nicole Cash: Hmm. Hmm. Gail Williams: Walter Beeler was my band director at Ithaca, and he could whistle any part at any time. And, and he, and he would. And it was pretty amazing, you know, what he could do. But I think what I feel about [00:20:00] singing, if you're in a ooh or if you're whistling, it's all the same shape of your face. And so it's right, it's, it's naturally right, you're gonna go right to playing. Yeah. Nicole Cash: Yeah. Andrew Hitz: Wow. Really Nicole Cash: interesting. Yeah, that's actually, that was what I was just thinking about. I was like, oh, whistling might even be better because you're in that, you're in that, you've, you're forming your embouchure. Gail Williams: Right. And then Nicole Cash: people, "Oh, I can't whistle." And you have to support your breath in a different way. Gail Williams: Yeah. Yeah. People say, "Oh, I can't whistle." Mm. I say, "Fake it." You know? Nicole Cash: Yeah. Gail Williams: So they get their tongue in the right position and their, and their corners and yeah. Yeah. And their air. You're exactly correct on that one. Nicole Cash: Mm-hmm. Gail Williams: Because it's their air. Because if you try to whistle and get too tight with your air, you can't whistle. Nicole Cash: Mm-hmm. Gail Williams: Doesn't work Andrew Hitz: Hmm. The, uh, really quickly, uh, and then Nicole, you can ask whatever you were about to ask. Uh, this is funny. Uh, you both know that, um, my [00:21:00] embouchure is, let's just say, not exactly gonna be featured in any textbooks anytime soon. It's a little, uh, it's a little atypical. And last night, uh, uh, my son, who is a seventh grade horn player, uh, was playing. And, um, uh, his mother, who is his band director, was, uh, was giving him some pointers, uh, about his corners. And he said to her, he said, he said, "Mom, I've grown up watching daddy puff his cheeks and, like, move his corners, so it's not my fault." He said it with a smile, which was absolutely- ... hilarious. He, like, he just thr- just shoved me in front of the bus that was oncoming. And, um, and I was like, "Well, I can't really fight back there." Um, and that actually reminds me, I wanted to be sure to mention that, uh, at the, uh, IHS that was at, um, in Harrisonburg, Virginia, uh, at the, um, you know, at JMU, that, uh, I, uh, took Nicholas, who was then 11, uh, down there, just because I wouldn't fly an 11-year-old [00:22:00] to San Francisco to go to IHS. But, like, it was a two-hour drive, and when's that gonna be- Yeah ... two hours from our house? Like never- Right ... again until, you know. So we went down, and I, I posted to Facebook the night before that it was gonna be a big day for him, 'cause he was gonna get to, uh, you know, meet Marty Hackleman, he was gonna get to meet Gail Williams, like, for the first time. And, uh, to the surprise of no one who knows her, uh, who's listening, um, when, uh, Gail saw me in the hallway, and then she saw Nicholas, and she didn't even say hello to me. She went straight to Nicholas and said, "You, you're, you're Nicholas." And he was like, "Yeah." And, and it was just like, it was amazing. It was like, it was just absolutely pr- And afterwards, I was like, "That's like one of the most famous horn players in the world." And he was like- He was just, he all, he lit up. So it was, uh, that was, uh, yeah. That's like, that- That's cool ... yeah, that's what, but that's what you do. Like, you remembered his name from the night before. And, um, yeah, so, uh, thank you from, uh, from this parent. Uh, yeah, that was, that was really special, so. Nicole- Gail Williams: See, I went [00:23:00] to, I went to the first horn workshop, which was the second workshop- Wow when I was, I had been, just turned 18. That was just after my freshman year. And to see- Those people, you know, you saw Barry Tuckwell, and Alan Civil, and on and on and on and on. Ib Lanzky-Otto, Chambers, Singer. Wow. I mean, they were, they were all there. My jaw was on the ground. Nicole Cash: Mm. Gail Williams: You know? And to, and to hear them talk about things. That's the only thing I can say about the horn workshops that I don't particularly like as much. Uh, when I remember going to them as a young horn student, it was the artists that not only played, but they gave a lecture about something. Yeah. And I... And not just a master class, but, you know. And I think hearing what they had to say was a [00:24:00] lasting impression. Yeah. Andrew Hitz: Wow. Yeah, the other name I, I have to shout out is, uh, Jennifer Montone, who I've, uh, known since we were in high school at Tanglewood together. . But, uh, she went, she was, like, above and beyond, uh, with him. And, uh, and she is a Robinson graduate, where he just started, uh, in secondary school. Oh, nice. So yeah, so there was like- Yeah yeah, he, his, his face lit up when, uh, when she- Yeah ... told him that he, that she went to Robinson, so yeah. Anyway, all really good humans. Nicole Cash: Well, I have an e- I have an even longer claim on her than you do, because I've known her since I was in the eighth grade. Andrew Hitz: Whoa, look at, look at you, like, one upsmanship. . I like it. The I was gonna say- Yeah ... ask whatever question you're gonna ask, but now I, I, I'm not sure I wanna hear it, 'cause you're- ... being mean to me. Nicole Cash: No, no, no. No, I, well, I had two, I have two thoughts now, because Gail, you were talking about the, the workshops, and I just think that that's such perspective, right? 'Cause here's Gail Williams fan girling about her predecessors, right, and how what it was like for you to [00:25:00] go to a conference, a horn workshop, and see these greats of the horn. And you're Gail Williams, right? So, you know, at one point, at some point that you probably didn't even realize, and I'm saying this 'cause it happened to me, too, um, you become that person that all these people are looking forward to seeing and hearing. And I remem- my, my first workshop was when I was already in San Francisco Symphony, and I didn't... I don't know, do we ever see ourself as somebody who people who we don't know are gonna see us down the hall, and kn- know who we are, and wanna meet us, and, and, and admire us? So anyway, I just think that that's, I think that's one of the beautiful things about our industry, is that no matter where you're at, the beginning, the end, you know, there's just this legacy of, of heroes, and mentors, and people to admire. Mm. [00:26:00] Anyway, I don't know, that was very circular, but I wanna change gears a little bit though, because, um, I always felt as a, as a, as a upcoming horn player, I don't think I realized how lucky I was to have had as many, um, woman m- m- woman idols and mentors as I did. Because I, you know, I studied with Sylvia Alimena in high school, and then I came to Northwestern, and I knew that I was gonna be, you know, in your orbit and get to learn from you. Um, and it's funny because now that I'm older and have gone through some things, and I'm a mom now, and, and, and I think... Uh, Gail, remind me when it was that you re- retired from the symphony, from the CSO. What year was that? ' Gail Williams: 98. ' Nicole Cash: 98. So that's, I mean, that's the year I graduated from Northwestern. So I was at Northwestern when you were still... You were teaching, you [00:27:00] were playing in the orchestra, you were juggling it all, you were a mom. And I had no clue, like, what that could potentially look like, right? I'm just, like, this 18, 19, 20-year-old child basically. And I remember when you decided to step away from the orchestra just being so, like, flabbergasted. Because here, that was, that was our big dream, you know, as students. Like, I wanna play in one of the big orchestras, and here Gail Williams is doing exactly what it is that I wanna do, and I hadn't been able to... I, I had no perspective on, like, what's really important, right? So I just wonder if you would talk to us a little bit about, you know, what it was like making that decision to step away from the orchestra and to lean into the teaching, and what your reasoning was, um, at that time. I have a feeling I kind of know, but I would love to hear, you know, you talk about that, because that feels very personal to me right now, and I bet there's a lot of [00:28:00] people listening that, you know- Gail Williams: Well, it was, of course, a very hard decision. Yeah. Some people may not know, but, uh, when you would go on tour with the Chicago Symphony, which was not just one time a year, sometimes it was two or three- Mm-hmm um, for three weeks- Nicole Cash: Yeah ... Gail Williams: at a time. And my husband was principal clarinet, and we had two children. Uh, and as they matured, I mean, when I was first in the orchestra going on tour, I was very, very fortunate that my parents would come out and take care of the kids. And I had a full-time sitter, so they would, you know, take care of my kids and, and we... I did all kinds of things. Nicole Cash: Mm-hmm. Gail Williams: And then when my father had a stroke and couldn't come anymore, that's when we started taking the kids on tours. That was no vacation, you know, for anybody, because we still had to work, so we had to take a sitter. And then it [00:29:00] became, oh, they're getting to be teenagers, and they can't leave school. Nicole Cash: Mm-hmm. Gail Williams: What do you do? Nicole Cash: Yeah. Gail Williams: Hmm. And that is when I decided... And I was a... And I took a sabbatical for part of the year. Mm-hmm. And that's when I taught 10 students at Northwestern. Mm-hmm. And I think you were there at the time. Mm-hmm. And realized that I sort of felt like I was half doing the teaching job that I should be doing. Yeah. 'Cause I, of course, talked to Jack a lot about this. Nicole Cash: Yeah. Gail Williams: And, and also somebody else, Phil Farkas. Hmm. And... 'Cause I asked Phil when he retired from the CSO to go teach full time, and he said to me, uh, it was one, at one of the Summit Brass things when he went there. So it had been up in Keystone one of the first years, I believe. He [00:30:00] said, uh- your legacy will not be playing. Your legacy will be teaching. That's what people will remember. People don't remember that I played all these recordings with the CSO. They remember because of all the teaching I did. And he left, I think, when he was 44. Mm-hmm. So that was, that put a, a bug in my head many years ago be- you know, before I ever thought about leaving. Nicole Cash: Yeah. Gail Williams: Uh, 'cause my kids, I think, were, like, two and four or something like that at that time. But the year that I took off, and I was doing a lot of chamber music with my chamber music group, um, I realized, gosh, I, I can play the Schubert Octet and I don't have to repair my face from playing Bruckner the night before. And it was so much easier, and I so loved playing recitals and chamber music, that I didn't have to do that repair work. Nicole Cash: Mm-hmm. Gail Williams: And then I went back to the orchestra [00:31:00] for a year, 'cause at that point you had to. When you took a sabbatical, you had to go back. And I missed the chamber music playing. I didn't miss playing Bruckner symphonies anymore. I had played them all. Nicole Cash: Mm-hmm. Gail Williams: I ... You all ... A- and people ask me what did I miss when I left the orchestra? I said, "You'll be surprised to hear, but I probably miss playing Mozart piano concertos with Manny Ax or many of the other people, or some of the other great artists on other instruments, more than playing a big Mahler symphony." Mm. 'Cause I, I had done it. Nicole Cash: Yeah. Gail Williams: And 20 years wasn't long enough in many ways for me. I was very sad to leave the orchestra, but I knew that my kids needed me to be home. They were both teenagers, and, and maybe not surviving like they should survive. Yeah. So Northwestern was very kind and, and found them [00:32:00] a full-time position, and that's how all that came down. Nicole Cash: Yeah. Gail Williams: And, and I didn't turn back. I didn't turn, you know. Nicole Cash: Mm-hmm. Gail Williams: I just went ... I, I decided to go that way, make a new career, make a change. And change, I've always said to many people, change is healthy. Nicole Cash: Yeah, Gail Williams: I get it And it's, and it's important to accept that. It's okay. Yeah. And, and I, I still miss playing some things I don't miss playing Mahler Five. I, yeah. I, when they said we were gonna record it out in the Tetons a couple years ago, I went, "Oh, God. Again?" You know? And, and that's terrible to say as a horn player. Right. But I'd much rather play, um, the Beethoven Violin Concerto- Nicole Cash: Mm ... Gail Williams: with a great artist. Mm-hmm. You know? Mm-hmm. So, [00:33:00] or some choral work. I don't know. Nicole Cash: Yeah. ' Gail Williams: Cause I like ... And because, you know, at, before the symphony, I played in the opera, Lyric Opera, and I can say that's probably my post-grad degree, because I was there when Pavarotti was singing Tosca, and Domingo was singing, and Elena Obraztsova, which is a fabulous, uh, soprano. Um, Alfredo Kraus. I could go on and go on and go on about the different people I heard sing, and then you have to imitate that. Nicole Cash: And here we are back again talking about- Yep ... you know. Gail Williams: Singing. It, yep. So that's, I don't know, that's like my favorite. So leaving the orchestra was horrible, and I won't, um, say what some people said to me But it wasn't very kind. And I just... Actually, [00:34:00] the week that I put my letter up of resignation was a week that I was playing the, the Knussen Concerto with the orchestra. Nicole Cash: Mm. Andrew Hitz: Wow. Gail Williams: I, I tacked it on the board and walked down to the solo studio and just shut the door. Andrew Hitz: Wow. Gail Williams: So. Nicole Cash: Mm. Gail Williams: That's a good piece. Nicole Cash: I remember when you played it at Northwestern. Gail Williams: Uh. Yep. Nicole Cash: Yeah. Andrew Hitz: You are such a badass. You posted- ... that, like, before, right before you soloed with the orchestra. I mean, I'm not at all surprised. Like- Gail Williams: That was just like, that's what I had to do. I see. You know? Wow. It had to be done, and I just pondered over how to say it and I, and I did it. And, and I didn't ask Larry what he thought I should do. It was just, this was my decision. Nicole Cash: Yeah. Andrew Hitz: Wow. Gail Williams: Not his. Andrew Hitz: Without getting- Nicole Cash: I, I think this is just so important for people to hear, too, like what you said about change and, and creating the, the path that you want for yourself. 'Cause I think a lot of... [00:35:00] I, you know what, honestly, I don't know. I, but I can imagine that kids in conservatories are s- are still very much kind of have blinders on- Oh, sure ... about they want the orchestral job. And, and it's just, um, I think it's so important for them to have a better understanding of what that life really looks like and the sacrifices that are, uh, that are, that are truly involved. Um- Yes. Yeah ... and especially, unfortunately, it's, I mean, it's 2026, but for women, like, you're the one that left the orchestra, not Larry, right? Like, sometimes I th- I think about, I would think about my colleagues coming to work for, you know, uh, to play concerts and, you know, my male colleagues, and they'd say, "Oh, uh, my wife made this lovely whatever for dinner, you know, before I, before I had to come in." And I'd be like, "I had a peanut butter and jelly sandwich in the car on the way in." Like, I don't know, it just, it, it definitely felt like, um, again, it's, it's something that [00:36:00] we as women- You would Gail Williams: think in 2026 it would be different, but it's not. Nicole Cash: But it's not. It's not. It's not. But- Gail Williams: Sadly ... Nicole Cash: I, I, I mean, I'm so happy. I, I get it. Like, I, it resonates so, so clear with me, especially now. Like, yes, you left the orchestra, but you created this rich, full life, um, doing what you really loved doing, like playing the chamber music and doing the teaching and getting to travel and, and you, you got your time in the Tetons where you got to contin- you know, it's not like you missed out on, on the big orchestral rep either. Right. Right. Like, you put together, you f- Right ... you... And I'm, I'm, I'm talking as if it's all over. Obviously you have many adventures ahead of you, but, like, it's really inspiring. Gail Williams: Well, thank you. But it's- Yeah ... it's like, you know- I, I actually last year was my first year off of the, of teaching full-time. Mm. And I'd go to some concerts. They said, "You're so- you gotta come and hear the concerts." [00:37:00] I said, "Well, I actually like music." You know? But, and, and it's, and it's a thrill to hear students experience that. Yeah. I don't get jealous that they're getting to play this. Mm-hmm. I just want to watch and see their excitement and see how- Yeah you know, how they do. And- Nicole Cash: Yeah ... Gail Williams: and, and most of the time it's like, "Why are you sitting like that? You should be sitting up." You know, being the posture queen, you know? But- Nicole Cash: Ground yourself. Well, Gail Williams: it, it's so much easier if you get out of your way. But- Yeah ... um, yeah, I've, I've gone... Uh, last year I went to many horn recitals. Andrew Hitz: Mm-hmm. Gail Williams: And I will continue. Someone said, "You're really gonna do that?" I said, "Yeah. I actually like to hear what's going on." Mm-hmm. And- ... you know, some of the students there are still some that I s- were freshman and sophomores too, so it's nice to see them mature and see their healthy developing. 'Cause I'm curious. I'm always will be curious, and that's [00:38:00] part of life, right? Nicole Cash: That's part of a, a life well lived, yeah. Andrew Hitz: Yes. Absolutely. Yeah, it doesn't have to be- I admire that in you ... a part of life, yeah. Yeah. But it, it is for the most interesting people. Wow. Gail Williams: Um- Andrew Hitz: I, Gail Williams: I did a class the other day up in Milwaukee and, you know, one of my photography gurus that I love that I went on a trip with, he was talking about the triangle of photography. Nicole Cash: Okay. Gail Williams: Yeah, aperture, the ISO, and the shutter speed and stuff. So I said that to a student. I said, "So turn it into horn. What are the three... You got to have a balance, you know?" And it can be different ones, but- Mm ... that's just being curious and making it work. Andrew Hitz: Mm-hmm. Wow. Yeah, I, uh, I keep coming back to you saying that change is healthy, um, which is, uh, which is even more powerful than change is good or that change is natural or inevitable. All those are true, but- Mm ... but healthy. I'm reminded of my, my favorite author, Seth Godin. Um, he [00:39:00] calls it tension, which he defines as, uh, any time that you do something where it might go well and it might not go well. And, uh, the fact is that when you've performed a Mahler five, uh, f- six, seven times, that, uh, the eighth time there's no curve balls. It's gonna... I mean, yes, you could play your 7 out of 10 or your 9 out of 10, but, like, even your 3 out of 10 is gonna be really good, and it's in tune, and it's in time, and there's really no tension there because you know how it goes. But, um, but leaving that orchestra when you did, uh, you know, to, to, for new adventures, um, that- that's, that's tension right there. And, uh, my goodness, um, you know, has it, has it worked out. We're actually going to, uh, we're gonna go to the break now, but then, uh, after that I want to talk about, uh, about your retirement from Northwestern and that concert and all of the students that, uh, came out. But first we go to the break. Here's something [00:40:00] completely free from Hitz Academy that I'm excited about. Making music with others connects us in ways that are hard to describe to a non-musician. Playing with and for others really is the magical part of music. So isn't it unfortunate that we spent countless hours practicing in total isolation, day after day, week after week, month after month of complete isolation? What if we didn't always have to practice alone? What if we practiced separately but alongside one another? This is how I came up with the idea for Practicing in Community, where musicians log on and practice together. Here's how it works. I share a quick practicing tip, everyone posts one goal in the chat, we practice with cameras on and mics off, and we finish by sharing wins. There's a growing body of research and a lot of experience behind the power of body doubling, simply working next to someone else, either online or in person. Practicing in Community is a way for musicians to turn the loneliest part of being a musician into something recharging. Because we practice with our [00:41:00] mics off, no one will hear you play a single note, and that's why this works for amateur musicians practicing alongside professionals, or professionals learning a brand-new instrument or genre of music to get outside of their comfort zone. We are simply there to get the work done, support each other, and celebrate the wins. And even the best musicians in the world practice all the time. So we will occasionally be joined by some of them to offer a tip and to practice along with us. So go to practicingincommunity.com to see the next session and to sign up. It is free, but registration is required. Again, practicingincommunity.com. I can't wait to practice with you All right. We are back with Gail Williams, horn superstar. I've called you an icon, I've called you a legend, now a superstar. Um, I'm gonna, I'm just gonna- ... like, really, uh, I'm gonna... And, and you called yourself the posture queen. I like it. I, I wish I'd, I wish I introduced you as that at the beginning, and that's it, just like, "I'm joined by the posture queen, Gail [00:42:00] Williams." Nicole Cash: Now I'm hearing ABBA in my head- Andrew Hitz: Right ... with different lyrics. So you retired from Northwestern, um, a- about a year and a half ago at the end of the 2024/25, um, academic year, and, uh, your impact there, uh, was just absolutely enormous. Uh, enormous through, um... I never actually took a class with you, but you impacted me when I was there. Um, you know, former students like Nicole and, uh, at, at your final, uh, at your celebration, if you will, there was, like, a horn choir with, uh, and there's a really moving photo of you where you're standing on stage and you're tearing up and, um, you know, it's, it's obvious that you are in a room full of people that love and admire you. And, um, I can only imagine what was going through your mind at that time. Can you talk to us about, uh, about that night and how special it was? Gail Williams: Well, through [00:43:00] my, uh, my, uh, tenure at Northwestern, I l- I love doing recitals and doing s- silly things, but I, what I started, and I don't remember exactly when I started doing this, it was I think when I was still playing recitals at Lutkin, you know- Mm which is a small hall, and I would have the graduating kids play. We'd play a horn quartet or who- whatever there was, you know. And it kind of grew where one year I did a little bit more playing with the students. And so since I had officially retired from Northwestern three years before, and then circumstances, uh, the dean asked me to stay another year, and then another year, and then I finally said, "I'm done." Mm. You know? "I, I'm done, and it's time to move on." And there [00:44:00] had been an official retirement concert that I retired when Steve Cohen, who was the clarinet professor, and myself, when we had a, uh, we had Jim Stevenson, uh, compose a piece for us, and we had a big concert and a big party at the school, and this was gonna be my party. I was gonna, oh, so I put, I scheduled a- Date with, I don't know, I don't know how I would have done it without a couple people. Gavin Reed, and, um, Eden Stargatt, and a couple of other students really just came forward. And it was the year that I was going down to Rice to do some teaching, and I would sit on my computer or my iPad and go through and try to find as many students as I could and their emails. And I didn't have a lot of the n- current emails. I still had the old Northwestern [00:45:00] emails, and I would send them on to Gavin, or I would meet him down in Houston. And we had the date, and then that's, we started spreading the word that way through emails and trying to get a sign up. And I decided I was gonna play a piece with the freshman class, and the sophomore class, and the junior class, and the senior class and grads. And then we had, uh, I don't know why or how, but we did a piece that had people that came in that had sort of major jobs, and did that. And then because I had conducted this beautiful Vaughan Williams piece for Norman Schweikert's memorial. Now, I was going through all kinds of other big repertoire, uh, for large, large horn choir, and none of them hit me. Uh, nope, we're gonna do the same thing, the Thomas Tallis. [00:46:00] I'll do it. And so the word got out, and yeah, there were like 80 people. It was quite the sound . And it was quite the party. Yeah. It was my party So I, we had a good time the night before, and then we had a rehearsal when the people that couldn't come the day before to rehearse. And we rehearsed that, and then, then we had the concert, and then we went to a restaurant and yeah. Had a bonfire in my backyard till all hours. Mm. And then I had the brass ensemble concert the next night, so some people stayed and listened to that. So that was really fun. Then there was another bonfire that even lasted even longer. My poor neighbors were like, "When they gonna go to sleep?" You know? But it was a, it was a grand time, and it was just so special to have that many students come back, and, uh, yeah. Andrew Hitz: Wow. Nicole Cash: So. Andrew Hitz: Special. Yeah, that's great. So what I'm hearing is that in your retirement you party [00:47:00] every night. Is that- Oh, yeah ... is that accurate? Yeah. Nicole Cash: Well, you don't have to play a concert, so. Andrew Hitz: That's right. Gail Williams: Right? Andrew Hitz: Yeah, you don't have to recover from- You can start earlier ... from a Bruckner symphony. So yeah, you're just having bonfires every night in the backyard. Gail Williams: Right. But it was, it was, you know, very special, and it's very special for me to have Adam Unsworth come and, and be the professor now. And continuing, John Bowen is still teaching with me and, and with Adam also, so that's very special. Andrew Hitz: Wow. Your legacy lives on in, uh, in so many ways. Gail Williams: Well, see, John Bowen and I have s- most people don't realize, before when I was still in Lyric, uh, Bill Klingelhoffer, who had been first horn, left to go to Houston Symphony, and I went over, and I'd already won the symphony job, but they asked me if I would please play and audition because they did- didn't hire a principal at Lyric. So I went back and [00:48:00] auditioned, but at the same time, they needed a horn teacher out in DeKalb. And who was a senior at DeKalb? John Bowen. So that was- so we go way back. Yeah. Andrew Hitz: Wow. So- Gail Williams: Tiny world ... Andrew Hitz: yeah. It sure is a tiny world. Gail Williams: It's a very tiny world. Yeah. Andrew Hitz: Wow. Very cool. Yeah, I got to, um, I got to experience, um, Mallory Thompson had a, a couple of celebrations, uh, the sweet 50- Right and, um, yeah, and her final one, obviously. And, um, yeah, the, the two of you just like the, uh, uh, independently and together, just the mark that you have left on that institution, which is still going to be felt, uh, decades after either one of you are collecting a- Well, I think- ... a paycheck ... Gail Williams: new, new things are happening, and I think that's good. Andrew Hitz: Yes. You know? Ch- I- Gail Williams: You gotta, you gotta Andrew Hitz: work Gail Williams: hard ... Andrew Hitz: a wise woman once told me that change is healthy, so- [00:49:00] Nicole Cash: Yeah. Yeah. It, it's good. It's- Never leave an opportunity untaken. Andrew Hitz: Yeah. See that I could cha- I can, like, I can turn, like, probably the most, like, the, the most precious soundbite of the whole, and I can just turn it into a cheap laugh. So that's, like- ... that's my, that's my... We all, we all know our lane. That's my lane. So yeah. That's great. Yeah. Yeah. Nicole Cash: Speaking of change, I'm curious, like, in terms of your teaching, um, from, from the beginning of your, your career as a teacher to, to now, what would you say has, has... How, how would you say it's evolved? Like, do you feel... How would you say it's kind of like... What, what is it distilled into? You know? Like, I, I feel like teachers get better at teaching the longer they do it, you know? Like, what, what did you... What Gail Williams: would you- That's, you know, it's something I asked Adam- Nicole Cash: Yeah Gail Williams: the other day. We were- Mm ... [00:50:00] talking, and I said, "So y- you're one of the very first kids I taught." Nicole Cash: Mm. Gail Williams: He was a junior when Norman had a s- uh, heart attack, I think, and I took... He came in to study with me, and he studied with me at senior year. And what didn't you get? You know. Andrew Hitz: Yeah. Wow. Gail Williams: And he didn't really answer me But what he said, what he got was, which was very touching, someone that cared. Mm. And that I would try to go to everything he played. Yeah. Which didn't happen all the time. Nicole Cash: Yeah. Gail Williams: And that's why, a big reason why I thought I was doing a half-job teaching at Northwestern and playing the symphony, 'cause I couldn't hear their dress rehearsal, or I couldn't hear their, their recitals, or I couldn't go to all the concerts and really hear what they were doing in the hall. Nicole Cash: Mm. Gail Williams: And I [00:51:00] learned so much, and then I would ... Sometimes I took notes, and then came back. And that's, I think, how my teaching evolved, was, uh, trying to hear more- Of how they were presenting their own sound, I guess. Mm-hmm. But I also, I don't, I'm not afraid to, to learn. And I think that's i- important for any teacher, that you can always be learning from your student. Nicole Cash: Yeah. Gail Williams: So if they brought in something, I would sit there and just have to go, "Hmm. I gotta think about this one," you know? Yeah. Kind of thing. Because, because that's what you do. And, but, but Herseth would always say, "You still learn, no matter how old you are. You have to keep learning." So that's an important- Mm kind of life lesson from him. But, um, you know, when I studied with [00:52:00] Mr. Jacobs, when I first started studying, I was, mm, first year at Northwestern, so I was probably, what, 22. And then I studied with him over the years till he passed, and what I got out of that was it became more simplified. Nicole Cash: Yeah. Gail Williams: Instead of all the details- Yeah of this machine and this machine, this machine, this. And basically he was saying, "Will you please take a breath and s- and play a beautiful phrase." So that's what I, I'm, I know that I have a tendency to go down the rabbit hole of being, I can do it. I know what you're doing wrong here. Mm. I don't always wanna do that. I wanna do the music part. However, you know, you probably, I don't know if Anne d- do- knows this, but I applied to Ithaca College as a phys ed major. Andrew Hitz: I did not know that. Gail Williams: I did not wanna be in music. My mother had been in music. My brother was in music. There's no way I was [00:53:00] going into music. Yeah. And I got my halfway twisted off. And- But I always approached, then, playing the horn as, you've gotta be an athlete. Nicole Cash: Mm-hmm. Gail Williams: So you've gotta have everything set up correctly. Nicole Cash: Mm-hmm. Gail Williams: Whether it's, um, playing a scale or, or sitting in a chair. Whatever it is, you have to be efficient. Nicole Cash: Mm-hmm. Gail Williams: Just like a great athlete, they're efficient. Yeah. And it's like, you know, 'cause, 'cause I am a baseball freak a little bit. Watching PCA (Pete Crow-Armstrong), the beginning of the season, I said to my neighbor, "What is he doing wrong? He's doing something wrong." And then he started hitting and I said, "Okay, what is he doing correctness?" And he said, yeah, he went back and looked at some old tapes, as did other, some other people did, that he just, his body wasn't in alignment. Nicole Cash: Mm. [00:54:00] Gail Williams: And he'll t- When he hits, it looks so relaxed. It's just unbelievable. So everything's going in the same direction. So I, I approach horn and teaching it, it's gotta be, you've gotta have the right direction. And if you're holding tension somewhere, it could be in your toes, it's gonna end up being someplace else. Nicole Cash: Mm-hmm. Gail Williams: But- Andrew Hitz: Wow. Oh, I love it. Yeah, tension kills tone. Sam used to say Gail Williams: that- Oh, Sam's- ... all the time ... I have that piece of paper that Sam wrote that. Yep. Andrew Hitz: Yeah. Yeah. Um, how remarkable is it that you went to Adam and said, "What did you not get from me?" Like, that is just, like, the... I mean, it's, uh, I, I, I don't think anybody disagrees that remaining teachable is important, but, uh, but talk about walking the walk. Um, and you said you didn't quite get an answer out of him, but, uh, that's truly a, a, uh, that's a incredibly [00:55:00] impressive dedication to being the best possible version of yourself when you are already at the absolute top of the profession as a player and as a teacher. You don't need to be asking anybody what they're not getting. You could just keep doing what you're doing and there's gonna be a big retirement party for you at the end, as there was. Uh, but you had a burning desire to get better and to learn from somebody you taught. That's, that's really, uh, I'm not surprised, but very impressive. Gail Williams: I'm, I'm still, I mean, I would love to ask a lot of people, you know- Andrew Hitz: Yeah Gail Williams: what didn't you get? And because the years go by so fast. They go, and especially, you know, when I first started teaching, um, I didn't see pit kids four years in a row. It was, you s- you went over to Schweiker and you went over here, and everybody, you know. And, and it was Mr. Covert again that said to me, "You won't know what kind of a teacher you can become until you graduate about 10 classes, starting from freshman [00:56:00] year." And he said, "And you teach the freshmen." He said, "Don't do what some of these other schools do when you have so many people and you have the, um, TAs," which Northwestern doesn't have TAs that teach. Uh, you've gotta teach your freshmen 'cause by the time they graduate they don't need to hear you say the same thing over and over. Uh, and I, I actually thought I would do my master's at Ithaca with him. Mm. And he said, "No, wouldn't accept you." He said, "You gotta go-" Tough room. "You gotta go someplace else." And that's when I asked at a horn workshop, I got the gumption up to talk to Mr. Farkas, and I said, "So I'm gonna be applying to a graduate school and I'm thinking of where I might go, and I'm, I was wondering if, you know, you thought I should apply here." And he said, "Who do you study with?" And I said, "Well, I go to Ithaca College." And he said, "Oh, you study with John Covert. No, you don't, you're not gonna come here." "You need to go someplace [00:57:00] where you hear an orchestra play every single week. That will be your graduate work." Nicole Cash: Mm-hmm. Gail Williams: He was right. Absolutely correct. Because being at Ithaca and not having, you know, heard orchestras much, except what I played in and then went to Tanglewood, and my jaw was on the ground when I heard Boston play, you know, three concerts a week. Holy mackerel, was that fantastic. Mm. And I was 20. Then I had to do, go do my student teaching. Uh, that was hard, because all I wanted to do was play the horn, and I had to teach. Nicole Cash: Mm. Gail Williams: So clarinet, bassoon, you know, percussion. But- Uh, it was, it was the right thing for me to come to Northwestern because of a certain Gabrieli record that came out- Yeah ... when I was about making that decision. And all I said is, "I wanna go hear that trumpet player play." Mm-hmm. So [00:58:00] that's why I came to Chicago Andrew Hitz: Wow Nicole Cash: Every... It was meant to be. Andrew Hitz: It sure was. Gail Williams: Yeah. Yeah. Andrew Hitz: When you shared Gail Williams: that- And I didn't, I didn't study with Clevenger. Then I studied with Frank Brouk- Mm-hmm ... who was great. Andrew Hitz: Hmm. Wow. When you shared that you, uh, went, uh, initially as a, a phys ed major, which I did not know. Gail Williams: No, no, I didn't. But you, you- I, I then applied to music. Yeah. Andrew Hitz: Got it. Okay. So you are... But that was, like, what your plan was at least, sounds like, in your head. Yeah. Uh, my first reaction was, like, can you imagine, like, you know, like, the... I mean, just the impact you've had on the world. It's like, can you imagine if that had not, you know, you'd not gone the music route? But then I'm sitting here thinking, like, no, if you had gone that other route, I think you would have impacted the world just as much. I think selfishly I'm happy that it worked out the way it did because I got to be impacted, but I... You strike me as somebody who would've changed the world no matter what path you ended up pursuing, whether it was athletics or music or, uh, something [00:59:00] completely different. 'Cause you've got self-awareness. You've got... You just, you care so much. Um, and you're just a badass. So, which I'll, uh- And that- ... which I'll say Nicole Cash: nothing- ... desire to learn. That- Yes ... that desire to constantly improve and, and how can I, how can I just do this a little bit better or just a little bit different? And, and- Andrew Hitz: Yeah ... Nicole Cash: I don't know. I feel bad for people who don't have that, and I think all, I think successful musicians, I think, all have that. Gail Williams: Oh, I think so, too. Nicole Cash: Yeah. Gail Williams: I, I, I really do think that. Andrew Hitz: Certainly the happy ones. Gail Williams: Or, or you wouldn't... Yeah, right, or you get so bored. Andrew Hitz: Yeah. Nicole Cash: Yeah. Gail Williams: Yeah. Andrew Hitz: Yeah, that's right. It doesn't... Yeah, it w- it was very interesting hearing you talk about how once you've played Mahler Five however many times that that wasn't, you know, really what, like, did it for you anymore. And, um, you know, I traveled with Boston Brass for 14 years, which was amazing, but, uh, as I like to say, the first time I went to Macau was a lot [01:00:00] cooler than the third time that I went to Macau. Um- ... which is a, which is a fascinating place. There's, like, like, old Portuguese architecture next to, like, Las Vegas neon. Like, and it's, like- Yeah ... real... Like, across the street from each other at times. Uh. Um, but the, you know, the third time I was like, "This is really far from my house." It's like really r- you know, the first time I didn't... I, 'cause I, yeah. Uh, I was a little bit ignorant. I was like, "I don't even know where Macau is." It turns out, you know, taking a boat across the South China Sea from Hong Kong. You know, it's, like, really exciting. And, um, yeah. So once you get there, you, you know, once you've done it a few times, yeah, change is healthy. Yeah. Which, um, is, uh... It can be easy to stay put. Um, and speaking of change, uh, Nicole is, uh, because she doesn't do anything, um, half-assed at all, um- That's right ... it's, like, it's not, it's not in her. Uh, but she's now this, like... She's like, how many people are like, "I'm gonna become a s-," the equivalent, "I'm gonna become an [01:01:00] audiobook narrator"? And then, uh, and then they- become like a, a multiple award-winning audiobook. Yeah, because it's Nicole. You know this. Um- Gail Williams: I'm, I'm really curious of how did you start to think about doing this? 'Cause I, you know, I'm, I'm one of her fans 'cause I listen to her books. Andrew Hitz: I know, I know this, and that's why I wanted to, not to turn this into the Nicole interview, but I know that Gail wants to hear it, so I'm turning this part into the Nicole interview. Great. So an- answer your teacher's question, Nicole. Nicole Cash: Uh, it's, it's a very frequently asked question, how do you get into that? Like, what makes you think, like ... And, and the truth is I did not listen to audiobooks until I started learning how to narrate audiobooks. I think I tried once years and years and years ago. Jason Snyder, I was doing a, a long trip, uh, a long road trip, and he's like, "You should get some books on tape. It's a really good way to pass the time." And so I was like, oh, that sounds like a really good idea, and it didn't work for me at the time. Like, I was in the car, I was probably [01:02:00] driving across Texas, 'cause that's when I started doing big road trips. And so it's really monotonous and flat, and I don't remember, I don't even remember what the book was, but I just kept having to rewind 'cause I was like, oh, what happened? You know? And it, it just wasn't working for me. So then fast-forward, I, I was, I liked reading with my eyeballs at the time, and I was an avid eyeball reader. Um, but you fast-forward to, like, a busier time in life where you've got kids and you've got a lot of things going on, and you're not sitting down with books anymore, right? Who has time for that? Um, uh, but I had a, I had a musician friend. Her name is Rebecca Stern. She's also an audiobook narrator, and we knew each other from my time in Texas. She was in the Fort Worth Symphony when I was in the Dallas Symphony, and she would sub with us and we became friends. And, um, I think we both identified in each other that we were, you know, yes, we are musicians and we love playing music, but we also have other interests and, and, [01:03:00] um- Uh, so we just kind of stayed in touch over the years. And I guess it must have been about five years ago, I think she hadn't realized that I was not only no longer with San Francisco, um, with the orchestra, that I just wasn't playing at all anymore, and she had- didn't really ... We'd lost touch enough that she didn't really know what was going on with me. So, um, she called me up one day and she was like, "I, I know that you're not playing anymore now, and I know why." We, we'd caught up. "What's next?" And I was like, "I have no idea." And she's like, "Well, I am trying to narrate audiobooks, and I think you'd be really good at it." Hmm. And I was like, "Okay. Well, I've got like a two-year-old and I don't, I don't really have the bandwidth right no- " Well, obviously it was longer than five years ago. I was like, "I don't really have the bandwidth to think about that right now." She's like, "But if you think about, if, if- Hmm ... [01:04:00] if the, the, the tunnel starts, you start seeing the light at the end of the tunnel and you're curious at all about it, call me." So about a year later, my, you know, I'm starting to, kids are in preschool. I'm starting to have a little bit of time to myself where I'm not being touched all the time, and, um, I'm kinda thinking about it. I'm like, "Huh." This is something I could do that's creative and performative, and I could do it from home, and I can do it as much or as little as I want to, and that sounds like the exact opposite of a horn career. Sounds quite lovely, right, in terms of striking a balance between what you're got on your plate already. And so, um, yeah, so I called Rebecca, and I was like, "Tell me more." And she said, "This is a class that you should take," and, um, you know, just... So I took the class, and I think there was a certain point where I was like, "All right, [01:05:00] I guess I'm doing this." I bought some, I had bought gear. I had spent money on it. So I was like, I invested, so I'm gonna at least give it a college try. And again, I just think there's something in creative people, in artists, I think there's just something where it's really hard for us to decide to do something and, and not to just really get after it. And- Yeah ... so I don't know. And it's interesting too because even amongst my new colleagues of narrators, I do feel like there's just so much that I bring, not only from the musical background, but just having had to, having had to just really be dedicated and consistent, like you were saying, um, at, at something, at anything. Gail Williams: Mm. Nicole Cash: And it, it, it just, I think that served my abi- my ability to [01:06:00] figure out how to do this new thing, you know? And be curious and always be thinking about, like, how do I do this better? Is a, is, is this, is there a better choice I could make that makes this more effective, that makes this, that will, will make someone connect in a, in a human way? And, and to tap into the emotional, um, meat and potatoes that, that's at the, the crux of what we do as creative people and as artists. So yeah, I think I just needed... Long story short, this was something I could do that I, I, I can't play the horn anymore, but I can still tell stories somehow, and I can, I can do it in a way that allows me to have the kind of life that I really wanna live. And I feel, I f- I feel very attached to your story, um, now more than ever. Um, different reasons for why I left the orchestra, but you know, at the end of the day, I think [01:07:00] we, we end up where we're supposed to be, you know? Gail Williams: Yeah. That, that's really interesting, Nicole, 'cause when I first started teaching at Northwestern, I talked to Chick. I was like, "What are we gonna do with all these kids?" What, what are we... You know, there's only so many openings. Nicole Cash: Mm-hmm. Gail Williams: And he said, "You should never question that, because these music students know how to practice, and they have dedication, much more than any other field." Nicole Cash: Yep. Gail Williams: That- Yep ... they'll be able to go into another field and have that same dedication, and they know how to continue and practice and be curious. And, and you just, just said it all. Yeah. You just absolutely said exactly what is important. Yeah. Yeah. Andrew Hitz: And I'm listening to you, Nicole, and hearing, uh, I'm... In what you just said, I'm hearing Gail talking about photography. Yeah. I, yeah, I mean, it's like the, the parallel there [01:08:00] was really, uh, uncanny, and at the same time, not surprising. Uh, just that- Not Nicole Cash: surprising. Andrew Hitz: Yeah. Nicole Cash: We get to really, in whatever it is that we're doing, like I made artisanal chocolates for a while at a chocolate shop. I baked cakes. But whatever it is that we're doing, you're, you're, it's just makes it a richer, better, fuller experience. Like, you could be painting your toenails and be like, "Oh, if I use, move the brush this way, that..." I don't know. I think it's a wonderful way to be. I'm so happy for all of us musicians who get to live our life with this mindset. Andrew Hitz: Wow Gail Williams: Instead of sitting there and having to do it the same way every time. Nicole Cash: Yeah, yeah Gail Williams: Yes. Nicole Cash: Yeah, and when you, and when you think about ... There was, um, there was a discussion on a Facebook page that I kind of, I kind of voyeuristically watch about women who love audiobooks. And there's this woman, she came on and she made this whole video, and she just, she was, she thought she was so clever. She's like, "Wouldn't it be amazing [01:09:00] if we could, like, figure out a way to have, uh, choose your own narrator on a book," right? And basically she was basically talking about AI, you know? She's talking about- Gail Williams: Oh, Nicole Cash: no the, the narrators, they can l- you know, let them use their voice, but they get a cut of the pay every time their voice gets downloaded for the book, and you get to listen to your favorite narrator. And I, I couldn't not comment. And I just said, "Do you realize that the reason your favorite narrator is your favorite narrator is because they're a human being?" Gail Williams: Right. " Nicole Cash: And that they're, they're making choices every second about how to connect to you emotionally, and AI can't do that. And not only that, why would I as an artist, as a musician, as an actor, as a, as a voice actor, as anything ... Like you said, I like music. I like narrating audiobooks. Why would I not want to be doing the work of making music- Right. Exactly ... or love of making audiobooks, [01:10:00] right?" Yes. Like, that's the whole point Gail Williams: for me. Nicole Cash: Wow. Right? Like, why would I just sell my voice and, and cash a check when I actually want to be doing this? Andrew Hitz: There's, there's also, there's a, the, the thing about, um, to reduce it down to one thing, which is probably not that wise, but, like, Gail's horn playing, Nicole, your horn playing, uh, Sam Pilafian playing tuba in a brass quintet. It's like, I guess you can have computers that, uh, that could simulate Sam playing in a quintet, uh, and at this point could probably do, like, a pretty terrifyingly good job in some ways, right, of, like, of doing that. But the thing about Sam, about all three of you, is that, like, you play with such opinion, and yet you are listening and constantly ready and actually changing your opinion according to the data that's coming in in the moment. Yeah. So it's both exclamation points, but also willing to turn 90 degrees with that exclamation point, [01:11:00] and that can't be simulated. I mean, that, it just- No ... yeah, it can't. Gail Williams: No. It can't. No. Andrew Hitz: Yeah. Gail Williams: Wow. Well, I'm just, I'm just shocked, you know, 'cause this whole, uh, uh, I am older. I can, I can do some Zooms, but- ... this whole AI stuff I don't get, you know? And a, a teacher friend of mine was saying, "What would you do, Gail, with, uh, AI?" I said, "Oh, well, you can't play the horn AI, one. Two, if I was teaching in a, in a school, I'd say, 'Your phone goes over there, and here's a pencil and a piece of paper. Write it.'" Mm-hmm. Mm. And she said, "That's funny. That's what I've just announced to my class for next year." Mm-hmm. Because kids aren't... And I, uh, I'm sure you're experiencing this, Nicole, with your daughters, and I see it in my grandchildren. Like, what the heck? Yeah. Get off that iPad and read a book. Nicole Cash: Mm-hmm. Gail Williams: And I, I have three books [01:12:00] over here that I took one of my granddaughters yesterday to a bookstore for her birthday, for her ninth birthday, and I'm sort of shocked at what she chose. It wasn't any of the graphic novels. Nicole Cash: Oh, good for her, 'cause that's all... That's, my kids just want Gail Williams: graphic novels. I know. Got it. And I, I was kinda shocked that she says, "Grandma, I wanna buy this," and it's a little, teeny book about butterflies and the inside parts of the butterflies and this kind of butterfly. I'm like, "Where'd she get this one?" You know? Great. I don't care where she got it, but it's like, "Yes, of course I will buy this book for you." Nicole Cash: Yeah. A Gail Williams: beautiful edition from The Wizard of Oz. She wants to read The Wizard of Oz. Yeah. I'm like, "Okay." Nicole Cash: There's hope. She Gail Williams: got it, and yet these kids are on iPads at school all the time, and it just drives me cuckoo. Nicole Cash: Yeah. Gail Williams: But, uh- I'm Nicole Cash: hoping that it seems like there's, you know, we'll see. There seems to be a little glimmer of a backlash [01:13:00] happening, you know? Even my youngest, she wants to, if she, if she wants to, "Can I search something on Google?" I'm like, "Sure." And so she'll take my phone or whatever, and she'll start to do the voice, uh, like... And, "No," I'm like, "No, you have to type it in. You have to at least type it in. You cannot just talk to it." Then she comes home- Right ... and I'm like, "Your spelling is atrocious. Oh my God." Like, are you not, like, looking at the words? Anyway, we'll get there. Gail Williams: Yeah. But it's, it... Uh, when I listen to your books- Mm ... I just hear the creative aspect. That is, I went, "Oh, that's Nikki." That's the, that's the- Well, hopefully, Nicole Cash: I'm hoping Gail Williams: you're not thinking- Nicole Cash: That's the impression ... that it's me. Gail Williams: That's the impression that you give to the music, that you always had a beautiful voice when you played the horn. And you're doing the same thing now that I get to hear in books. And you [01:14:00] get me across country. I mean, I'm a big audiobook person, because I do a lot of driving. Nicole Cash: Yeah, yeah. Gail Williams: And I can't listen to music. First of all, one of my shepherds howled- ... so I couldn't listen And then you always have to turn it up and down, up and down. And this way, man, I just ... Yeah But there are It's very interesting when you said something about choosing your narrator, because there are some books that I would love to listen to that ... Nicole Cash: Yeah, I know. And- And I get that, and that's what I said. I understand that frustration. But, like, I don't know, maybe that's just- ... a book for your eyeballs Yeah instead of your earballs. Gail Williams: That's exactly right. Yeah. I love turning those pages. Andrew Hitz: Yeah, yeah. Nicole Cash: Yeah. Andrew Hitz: Well, uh, uh, I could talk to you, uh, well, I could talk to you both for hours. Uh, but it, uh, it'd be a good social experiment if I just kept this going s- to see which one of you first was like, "What are," like, "What are we doing?" Like, "When are we wrapping this?" [01:15:00] Uh, but, uh, no, uh, um, you're both, uh, special human beings, and, um, and I appreciate, uh, each of your time, um, today. Uh, Gail, before we let you go, is there anything that you wish that we had asked you about that, that we didn't? Well- Anything that comes to mind? Gail Williams: Do I tell s- uh, do I play scales? Andrew Hitz: Do, do you play scales, Gail? Gail Williams: S- sure. Andrew Hitz: Sure. That's Gail Williams: what my, my teacher would say to me, "Are you still s- still playing those scales?" Yes, Jack, still playing those scales. You know, th- they're all the same notes. They're just in a different order. Just keep mixing them up, so. Nicole Cash: Yeah. Gail Williams: Mixing, I guess that's what I wanna say is you don't have to do 'em always the same. Try different patterns. Andrew Hitz: Yes. So Gail Williams: keep your brain, keep your brain active. Andrew Hitz: Yes. Gail Williams: And, and do something different. Andrew Hitz: Yeah. Gail Williams: Yeah. Andrew Hitz: Yeah, that's the, that's great [01:16:00] advice. Yeah, it was, it was probably 10 years ago now when I, I realized that I could play scales in thirds, um, with, uh, descending thirds on the way down, uh, like no problem. But when I tried to do ascending thirds on the way down, um, half of them were no problem, and then there was a couple, like B major, I was like, it was like I was doing calculus in my head, you know? And so, and I, I then spent a summer where I just, I chose like a metronome mark. You know, it was like I was, like studying with somebody again when I wasn't at the time. But it was really good for me, and I was not bored 'cause it... Like, the goal was just out, enough out of reach that it kicked my butt for a month and a half. And, uh, and then I, and I did it. But yeah, y- perfect ex- Sure ... you know. Yeah, perfect example of what you're talking about. You just get creative with it. Gail Williams: Yeah. Andrew Hitz: Yeah. Well, um, thank you, uh, Nicole, for, uh, guest co-hosting. And, uh- Sure ... thank you, Gail, uh, for, well, for, for everything. I mean, for, uh, as I, I started this with the, uh, [01:17:00] over-the-top praise. I'll end it with the over-the-top praise as well. Um, just for being, uh, such a, a, a consistent and, uh, powerful example of, um, what's good about humans, uh, at a time when, um, when that is maybe in, uh, in short supply. In Nicole Cash: between. Yeah. Sometimes. Andrew Hitz: At, uh, yeah, at, at times. And- We're not gonna go down that rabbit hole, Bill. No, no, no, no. But I'm just, I'm just saying that, uh, that- ... that, uh, no, nobody's cursed yet, and I don't wanna slap that E on there. The 12-year-old, he discovered the Brass Monkey CD today, and he said to his... His mother told me. She, she said that he said, "There's Es on a lot of these." And, and she was like, "Yeah, that's your father." So yeah, anyway, uh, we, we won't slap an E on this one. Um- But, uh, but in all seriousness, I just like, uh, you know, the fact that you are continuing to try to improve yourself, to grow, um, trying new things, the tension that Seth Godin talked about. Um, it's, uh, somebody with your resume really doesn't need to do that, [01:18:00] if you will, and, and you are continually reinventing yourself. And, um, that's really... It's hard for the rest of us to stay complacent when the Gail Williamses of the world are actively doing that. And so thank you very much for setting that example. You're very Gail Williams: welcome. But there's also many people that are doing the same thing. Andrew Hitz: Yes. We all Gail Williams: have to. You can't sit still- Andrew Hitz: Yeah ... Gail Williams: and watch grass grow, you know? Andrew Hitz: Yeah. Gail Williams: You have to- Andrew Hitz: Yes. Gail Williams: Yeah. Andrew Hitz: You just did a good job of deflecting the praise to you. You're like, "Lots of people do that," but I'm talking about you right now. Well, they do. They do. So, yeah, I know. It's true. Yeah. It's true. But it's good when- And maybe Nicole Cash: a lot of them do it because they watched your example. Andrew Hitz: That, that's, this is what I'm saying. Thank you, Nicole. Well, I'm just trying to Gail Williams: keep up with Mallory. Nicole Cash: Fair. Andrew Hitz: Fair. Oh, that's the, that's the memory that I'll, uh, I'll, I'll leave with is that, um, that I was lucky enough to play in the brass ensemble for Mallory's wedding. Like, I was the tuba, which is funny. Yeah. I've like, I've played some high profile stuff all over the world- ... and I was like, I was nervous [01:19:00] for that one. I was like, I was... That was as nervous as I'd been in a long time. But up in the, you know, um, in Alice Millar up on the loft- Right ... it's like who, whose bell is pointing directly at me but Gail Williams? Yeah. And I took a photo from my stand. I mean, it's just right there. And I said, "It's pretty easy when you've got the answer key pointed at you." So, uh, you know, it was just phrasing and tone for days. It was, uh, that was really, really special. So, Gail Williams: yeah. That was, that was really fun. Do you- Andrew Hitz: Yeah ... Gail Williams: do you know the story about Tim Higgins? Andrew Hitz: I don't think so. Gail Williams: So I was at the vet's and I had the dogs, you know, and I was waiting for the vet to come. So I was looking at my phone and I get this text from Tim saying, "I've got COVID. I can't come." Andrew Hitz: Oh. Oh, God. Gail Williams: So I get in- In the [01:20:00] car and I call Mallory. I said, "So have you..." So I had time for that, and I said, "Tim has COVID. He can't come." But I- She says, "What's that?" I said, "Tuesday night." Which he's got- he's playing Music of the Baroque. And she said, "Just fix..." Now I gotta get ahold of Mark and say, "Are you bringing a trombone or just your alto? Maybe a tenor or..." But he was on the plane with just an alto. It was, it was up in the air until we sat down to rehearse. Andrew Hitz: Gail, we just lost you. And that- Can- Gail Williams: No, sorry. Andrew Hitz: Yeah, that's okay. We... It's like it was per- the internet was perfect for, like, the whole thing, and then all of a sudden, it's like- Yeah ... can you, can you tell the, the, the Tim story again? Gail Williams: Yeah. He, uh, [01:21:00] emailed me or texted me that he had COVID. Andrew Hitz: Wow. Gail Williams: And I was at the vet's, so I waited until after I got... I was driving home, and I called Mallory. I said, "Have you seen your email?" She says, "No, I don't have time for this." I said, "Well, Tim can't come. He's got COVID." Nicole Cash: Oh, God. Gail Williams: I said, "But I have an idea because Mark Lawrence is on his way to play Music of the Baroque." And I said, "And, you know, to kind of relate it to Northwestern people," he'd actually taught at Northwestern for a while, for a year. And so she said, "Just fix it, Gail." I went, "Okay." You know? And luckily, we had the music, and he only had an alto. Right. But then, but he was coming to dinner at my house here- Andrew Hitz: Right ... Gail Williams: uh, the next night. Yeah. So it all worked out. But it was like, oh, Mallory, gave me a heart attack. Fix it. [01:22:00] She's got, "I, I gotta get my... I gotta walk down that aisle." I said, "You'll get down that aisle." Andrew Hitz: Wow. And, and that actually led, uh, to, uh, that was the first and to, so far, only time I've ever met Mark, who was, of course, in Empire Brass with Sam Pilafian, with my mentor. Right. And the tuba that I brought to that was the three-quarter Rudy, which is right down here on the floor, which Sam played in Empire. And so- Oh, wow. Yeah. And so I, I was like, I told him, and Mark was like, "Yeah." He's like, "I thought that looked familiar." And so it was, uh, it was kinda neat to, uh, to get to... And that was all because, uh, poor Tim got COVID. I love Mallory saying, "Fix it." Yeah, that's, uh, that's great. Fix Gail Williams: it. Andrew Hitz: Yeah. Gail Williams: And so, 'cause I don't have time for that today. Andrew Hitz: Yeah. Wow. There you go. Yep, that's, uh, yeah. Uh, well, I'm, I'm glad that you, I'm glad you fixed it. Yeah, that was a really, uh, that was a- That was fun ... that was special. Yeah, that was a, that was a really special trip, so. Well, uh, Gail, [01:23:00] thank you. Nicole, thank you. And that, uh, we're gonna have Gail, uh, stick around for the bonus episode, uh, where we ask, uh, a few more, uh, lighter questions. And, um, that is gonna do it for another episode of The Brass Junkies. Gail and Nicole are two of my favorite humans, and I could talk to them for days. What a treat that was. Thanks to both of them. The Season 3 preview episode covered all of the changes to the show, but I did want to quickly highlight the newsletter. Sign up for the newsletter and you'll get a mix of things you won't find anywhere else. Five questions, short conversations with brass players that appear only in the newsletter, plus practicing insights from great players and some of my favorite moments across the show. So go to brassjunkies.com/newsletter to sign up today. That's brassjunkies.com/newsletter. As you may have heard in the season preview, we are introducing mini segments alongside the long-form interviews. They are short, recurring segments that show up throughout the season in [01:24:00] episodes, but also on the Brass Junkies YouTube channel. One of these recurring segments is Lance Would've Hated This. For anyone who doesn't know, Lance LaDuke was my co-host for the first 200 episodes of this show. He was also my colleague in Boston Brass and one of my best friends in the entire world. He died quite suddenly in 2023 after a freak accident, and he is dearly missed. Lance was perhaps one of the funniest human beings to ever draw a breath, and that is what inspired the name of this segment. Each installment of this segment will feature someone sharing a tribute to Lance and a story about him. There is nothing that would have made him more uncomfortable than a segment dedicated solely to people saying nice things about him, and he would love the fact that I am making fun of him for that. So here is the first ever installment of Lance Would've Hated This Andrew Hitz: Welcome to Lance Would've Hated This, a collection of tributes to my ... I really leaned into that, didn't I? Uh, yeah, La- Lance Would've Hated This, [01:25:00] a collection of tributes to my late Boston Brass colleague, Brass Junkies co-host, and dear friend, Lance LaDuke. Nothing would make him more uncomfortable than an entire segment dedicated to people saying nice things about him, which is exactly why I'm doing this. Today, I am joined by someone who, uh, knew him even longer than I did. Uh, her name is Dr. Deanna Swoboda, professor of tuba, euphonium, and music entrepreneurship, and co-associate director of music at Arizona State University. How are you, Deanna? Deanna Swoboda: I'm good. How are you doing? Andrew Hitz: Uh, I am good. I met Lance in 2002 at the Greensboro ITEC, and, um, uh, he, he was walking down the stairs, uh, with Jennifer Jester, um, who was in the studio with me. We were the three of us. And Deanna, you, and me, and Jennifer were all in Arizona together at the same time back in the late '90s. Anyway, I said hello to Jennifer. Um, [01:26:00] and, um, and then, uh, Lance and I... And, and then I said, "Oh, nice to meet you." And she went, she went, "You two don't know each other?" And, uh, and then we were like, "No." And she s- And she went like, "Oh." Like, she realized that she was like, oh, like, because she... And sure, I was like, "I know who he is." And he was like, "Oh, I know who he is." And then that was then, yeah, like, the knucklehead- Deanna Swoboda: The Andrew Hitz: knuckleheadery, uh, like, yeah, commenced immediately, and, uh, continued through the entire conference. So, um, when did you meet Lance? You met him in the '90s. Deanna Swoboda: Man, I, I, now that you say that, trying to remember when I met Lance, I mean, it all feels like- Andrew Hitz: A long time ago ... yesterday. Deanna Swoboda: Yeah. A long time ago and yesterday. Yeah, yeah, fair enough. You know what I mean? Andrew Hitz: Yep, I do. I do. Deanna Swoboda: Um, yeah, yeah. I mean, there are two people that I attribute for i- if I hadn't met and collaborated with or been encouraged by, um, I wouldn't be here today doing the things [01:27:00] that I'm doing. Um, one is Dr. Tim Lautzenheiser. I think he affects everyone in some capacity, but he's like, you know, "Just finish the doctorate." So when Tim said, "Just finish your doctorate," I was like, "Hmm, how am I gonna do that? I'm gonna call Lance." And Lance, uh, was always a fun collaborator, and I had this idea for a project. Uh, and he, he was like, "Yeah, let's do it. Let's go." And part of that... Well, we did a couple projects. First, it was Band Blast Off, um, a band recruitment program, and we collaborated on a video. Um, and then the next project was what became my dissertation project and recording, uh- Tuba Tex, How the West Was Fun. A kids, a kids album. Andrew Hitz: Amazing. Deanna Swoboda: I, uh, but- Andrew Hitz: I gotta interject very quickly. This is a, th- this sounds like not [01:28:00] real. Three days ago I called Dr. Tim because I needed advice on something, and, um, I, um, not on purpose, but he and I had not actually spoken or run into each other in probably a few years. And, uh, and, uh, he answered on the second ring and he was like, "Andrew Hitz." He's like, "How are you, my brother?" And he's like, "What can I do for you?" I, I mean, just like, just launched out of a cannon, and then he ended up getting me unstuck on something that I had been stuck on for months in like- Love that guy ... six minutes. Love it. Second ring and he answered. It's like having someone like that in my life is an absolute gift. So, um- Yeah ... yeah. Amazing. So anyway, yeah. So it w- and you just mentioned him and I was like, "This was..." Yeah. We're recording this on a Monday. I called him on Friday. It was three days ago. Amazing. And yeah, so anyway. Oh, yeah, yeah. Um, so this is not, uh, Dr. Tim would've hated this. This is Lance would've hated this, so no more nice things about Dr. Tim. Um, the, uh, 'cause Lance would [01:29:00] be totally comfortable with us praising Dr. Tim. Let's put the focus back on Lance. Deanna Swoboda: Right. Andrew Hitz: Um, so, so yeah, s- say more nice things about Lance. Deanna Swoboda: Lance was funny. He was so nice. He was a great dancer- Yeah ... as, well, you can see in the video. Andrew Hitz: Yeah, yeah. Deanna Swoboda: Absolutely. And, uh, dancing, you know, about an oboist and, uh, you know- Yeah. You know, I, I remember, uh, being at Tempest Recording when he was recording an album, and man, he was an incredible euphonium player. Phenomenal. So musical- Phenomenal ... and just like, wow. Yeah. It was the wow, you know? Andrew Hitz: Yes. Deanna Swoboda: Um- Andrew Hitz: Yeah ... Deanna Swoboda: and then all the other crazy fun. He- just as a human, what a great person. And like a Dr. Tim, he was always thinking about other people, you know- Yeah ... what he could do for, for you and, um, no matter what, it's like, "Okay, let's figure this out. Let's [01:30:00] do it." Andrew Hitz: Yeah. And I love that about- Talk, talk more... Sorry. Uh, talk more about that. Wha- like, what was it like to collaborate with him? You just mentioned a couple of things that he was integral in, and these were clearly your projects. It wasn't like a, you know, it was your dissertation, it was your video, but that he played an integral role. Uh, talk about, um, how he helped to steer those and how he left his mark on them. Deanna Swoboda: Yeah. Initially, it was a brainstorm project, you know. It was just to, to have someone to talk to that, you know, bounce ideas off of, and he was so imaginative and- Oh fun to sit and, you know, on the phone with, in a room with, um, just to see what sticks, what doesn't. Yeah. Um, so initially it was with each of the projects we did, it was the brainstorm. So much fun, you know, over good food and a good hang. Um, always, uh, just great [01:31:00] ideas. And, and- I've never- ... then coming away with, you know, with a plan. Andrew Hitz: Yes. I've never met anyone that was even close to as good as him at brainstorming. I would, I'd come up with an idea for something, um, some of the things that I still do to this day, and I would, uh, I'd spend like a little bit of time thinking about like a good name, and then I would stop until I could ask him because I would know that in under 30 seconds he could come up with something that was at least as good as what I did, um, or possibly way better, which like if I was not in the right mood, even though he was helping me, it could piss me off at how he would just be like- ba da ba blah, and it's like alliteration and it perfectly tells what it is, and it also leaves it open-ended in case you need to change course. And it's just like, "What? Who are you?" Yeah. Um, but then I just, yeah, just amazing. Like his brain just, uh, was... it just, everything clicked so fast for him. Deanna Swoboda: Yeah. Andrew Hitz: Um, and so he's good at brainstorming, but then he's also good at, was good [01:32:00] at follow through, right? At, um, yeah. I'm sure in those- Yeah ... projects that he was, um, yeah, that he was integral and just like if you needed a kick in the pants, I mean, whatever. Deanna Swoboda: Exactly. Yeah. I mean, 'cause that's a perfect example where you could come up with ideas and you have something on paper, and then the longer you wait on it- Yeah you can talk yourself out of whatever it is, but having, uh, Lance as your sounding board but also your cheerleader- Yeah ... and like, "Okay, let's do it. Let's go. Let's make a plan." Yeah. "When's this gonna happen?" And, uh, holding... he held me accountable for, for a lot of things that happened in my career- Andrew Hitz: Yeah Deanna Swoboda: projects. Andrew Hitz: Boy, that's awesome. Yeah. Yeah, good stuff. I don't know about you, I don't miss him at all. Like, not, not even, not even a little bit. Never, never think about him, so yeah. Deanna Swoboda: Yeah. Andrew Hitz: But that's why I'm doing this segment, I never think about him, so, you know, just to like- Yeah, right. ... force myself to just, you know, think about him from time to time. So, [01:33:00] um, thank you, Deanna. Deanna Swoboda: Thanks, Andrew.